In an interview with K.P. Sasi and the Archbishop of Bangalore, Archbishop Peter Machado said that the anti-conversion law was meant for persecution.
The Interview Between Journalist K.P. Sasi and Archbishop of Bangalore Rev. Peter Machado
While the anti-conversion law was first implemented in 1967 when the bill was passed in Odisha, he said that many cases of persecutions of Christians started from that time where it was insinuated that Adivasis were being converted and therefore they wanted this law. The Archbishop said that the law sent a message out that they were scared of Christians and also lead to situations where some religions will have full freedom, other religions will have limited freedom sending out a bad message.
He said that this would lead to open persecution where certain groups take law into their own hands saying that theirs is the only religion that can survive in India and all the other religions are disturbances. They would raid churches, take surveys, and make the lives of certain sections of people miserable in many ways. He reminded K.P. Sasi of the worst instance in Kandhamal where the persecutions reached the highest level and people were not allowed to live there; their houses were burnt and so many people died.
He stated that Article 25 clearly says freedom of conscience, freedom of religion and that any person can and have the right to believe any particular religion. He has the right to profess it, he has the right to practice it and he has the right to propagate it. These are the basic fundamental rights that are very clear and there is no need for an explanation for that. Dr. Ambedkar, an architect of the Indian Constitution himself converted from the Hindu religion to the Buddhist religion which means conversion was a basic part of the constitution.
Bishop Machado stated that the secular fabric of the Constitution means that everybody is equal. Article 14 speaks of equality. There is no distinction between Christians, Muslims, and Hindus, and all religions are equal and so, in that sense when there is such freedom given by the Constitution itself as articulated by Babasaheb Ambedkar, why are such regulations coming up? It is as good as saying that the Constitution has not explained much and therefore let us make another law to explain it much more to enforce it much more.
When K.P. Sasi asked, “The counterargument from the other side is that this law is against forced conversion and they blame the Christians for that since this is also there in the Constitution and as you say, there is no need for new law needed. Then what makes them go ahead?”
The Archbishop replied, “I feel it very funny because you think it is so easy to force the people to change their religion. You think it is very easy to convert people by giving certain gifts or incentives. Surely they will enjoy the gifts and come back to their original faith. There is nobody who can force people like that and the accusation made is that we take people from the lowest strata who are very poor, who are illiterate and take advantage of their innocence and then convert them. Do you think it is so easy?”
He continued, “On the other hand, you know that in politics today, the advantage is being taken of the same people who illiterate are poor. If the same people are given the right to vote and you trust them to vote for a particular person like a politician today, don’t you think that they can be trusted to choose a God or religion of their own choice with their full heart and full mind? Where is the force and where is the incentive? But I am open to it and if there are certain instances you have found, definitely action must be taken against them. But for that, you don’t need another law that is so restrictive that the Christian tomorrow should go with a badge saying that `I am a Christian, so be careful.”
He asked almost indignantly, “Are the Christians terrorists? Do the Christians store guns in their churches or drugs in their houses? As much as possible, we are for the nation, we are for the country and we are patriots. We have people among us who would like to give out their best. Look at our education system. Have we made a distinction between those who are from other communities and Christians? Or in our hospitals, do we segregate the patients on the basis of religion.? Do we say that people to people with diseases that you are from a particular religion, therefore, you would be given second class treatment and only Christians will be given first-class treatment?”
While the journalist asked him, “The counter-argument is also that through their school networks, medical institutions, hospitals, and services, the Christians are converting forcefully and by lure. That’s also a counterargument.
The Archbishop answered, “I find it very funny. Last time when a question like this was asked in public, I challenged them and said in Bangalore alone we have about 1000 schools and institutions and among them, even if there one such Christian conversion is taking place, I will take action, so strong action that I don’t mind closing the institution for this aberration. You know, we have passed the corona season and they were so many were put into our hospitals.
He continued, “St. John Medical College at one time had 900 affected patients. Don’t you think in those moments, when they were so threatened and we could have surely said that `you become a Christian we will give you better treatment?’ It was so easy for us to do that. It is so cheap on our part to do this in our schools, our institutions, and our social centers in order to convert the people. And I can assure you that we will never do that. We have not done it.”
The journalist stated, “Many of the BJP leaders at the national level have also studied in Christian schools and they have been using hospitals built by the Christians.”
Archbishop Machado replied, “Even today, during the admission time, my office is flooded with great politicians, great social workers.”
When asked if conversion is growing, he replied, “I was told it was 2.3 percent and now it has come to 2.1 percent here. The families are also becoming smaller. Earlier, we used to have bigger families. The Christians are also becoming less.
The journalist asked, “Why is the bill coming up now and what is that threatens the Hindutva forces of Christianity, and why the Christians are a threat?
Archbishop Machado answered, “I would say perhaps you know that as Christians, we are very good in education and we are good in health. Education transforms society. Education gives you recognition and also widens your intelligence and your worldview. Education comes with a lesson of one’s own dignity and identity, especially for the poor and the low caste people. And those who did not have access to education are just coming up. And they are becoming conscious of their rights and their fundamental responsibilities. Perhaps, this is causing a little discomfort for others in the upper strata and this perhaps is being resented.
He added, “And I would say that the Christians are responsible for this elevation of people in a positive way, which is not considered good for others. Perhaps, that may be a challenge to the other communities that the low caste and people from the lower strata are coming up. They are being educated. In many of our institutions, we give them free education. In many of the villages where they were no schools we have brought up the whole village itself and education transforms and this condition. It could be considered a certain negative point for us, which is perhaps going against us”.
K.P. Sasi raised a point where he said, “The anti Conversion law is not just affecting the Christians. It is also affecting the Muslims and it is affecting the other minorities also. For example in UP after the Anti-Conversion Law, there were not just the attacks on Christians have increased but also on Muslims.”
The journalist continued, “The big blame that the Muslims are converting is also there. So, they are also getting attacked and persecuted. And coming to Christianity, the majority of Christians are Dalits and Adivasis in India. The Dalits and Adivasis are also affected and they have said very clearly in this law that Dalits and Adivasis converted to Christianity will not get reservations. This is one way of luring Dalits from Christianity to Hinduism. But the point is that Christians reacting alone. Shouldn’t it be a resistance of a much wider manner? The Christians, Muslims, Dalits, Adivasis and even women are affected. So what is your perception on that?”
Archbishop Machado replied, “As you said, the Government itself says that this Anti Conversion Bill or Freedom of religion Bill is for all religions. But this rule pointed sort of poking the Christians more. And as you said, to deny the benefits of those belonging SC/ST sections who convert, this looks like a carrot and a stick that the government is using. If you become a Christian we will drop you. So, therefore, even if he or she believes in Christianity, or even if it gives more dignity, there are these official subsidies or perhaps incentives to discourage one from changing religion. I think this is a bad way of conducting, what we say the conduct to punish them by denying their rights. I would say, we are fighting it and perhaps the next stage would be to say that the Christians who are converted should not be denied the rights and the government should be gracious enough to extend to all the benefits that they received before conversion.
When K.P. Sasi asked, “So what is your final message to the citizens on this law which is going to come up?”
Archbishop Machado said, “I would say the citizens of this country are a very good lot. I have known that the majority of the Hindus the Muslims are very noble people. It is not that they have any intention to condemn us. They have seen our benefits. They have seen the sacrifices that our community has extended. Education, hospitals, and clinics that give clear service. We may not have multi-special hospitals. But we are doing our best. So, the majority of people are with us. I know that.
He continued, “But these are silent majority. However, there is a small segment of the population what we call fringe elements or the fundamentalists, who are doing these things and I do not want to compare this group with the rest of the country. I am very happy the country is beautiful and we have a beautiful Constitution and the Constitution has to retain the secular fabric. That is to be done. My advice to the general public is to be with us and trust us. You know that faith is important for us. Because of my faith, I am able to do good works. But if you restrict my faith, my good works may also be affected. Therefore, allow us to practice our faith and allow us to practice our religion.”
Congress Will Start A State-wide agitation Against Bill, and Reactions from Others About the Bill
After the bill was tabled, Karnataka Congress president DK Shivakumar tore the bill on the floor of the House and Congress MLAs staged a walkout. Congress has been fighting the bill in the state and Congress’s Siddaramaiah – who is the leader of the opposition, said it violates Article 25 of the Constitution.
The Congress said that they had no clue about the introduction of the bill today and it was “unconstitutional” for the ruling BJP to introduce it without informing the opposition by placing it on the agenda.
The Congress will not only oppose the anti-conversion Bill in the Assembly but also start a State-wide agitation against it, KPCC president D.K. Shivakumar said in Belagavi on Tuesday.
We will be objecting to present the #anticonversionbill in the #Karnataka assembly. This bill is against our Constitution. #BJP is trying to divide the people of the state. Karnataka is known for peace loving all religions coexisting well in the state: @DKShivakumar pic.twitter.com/lno44y1fzi
— Kiran Parashar (@KiranParashar21) December 21, 2021
“The Bill is aimed at Christians and their institutions. The BJP is alleging that they are converting the poor forcibly. This is baseless. There are no forcible conversions. Thousands of students from Hindu and other faiths attend convent schools in the State. Are all these schools conversion centers?’’ he asked.
“I know for a fact that children of at least 21 Ministers are either in convent schools or have passed out of such schools. Have they been forcibly converted?’’ he said while speaking to journalists. “Even I went to a Christian school. No one tried to convert me,’’ he said.
Most leaders take their relatives to Christian hospitals. But they target Christians for political benefit, he said.
Pieter Friedrich, an American author, and journalist, and political observer of South Asia wrote on Twitter that the law will only be used to criminalize Christians and give anti-Christian groups the freedom to attack Christians. He always exposes the right-wing as a paramilitary force calling them the “most xenophobic, genocidal” organization in India and has raised alarm bells over the rising attacks on Christians and Muslims in India and his speech is shared below:
Last month, the @CityofRoseville — no doubt in innocent ignorance of the group’s ties to its parent organization, the violent #RSS paramilitary — welcomed the @hssusa into its chambers to honor them with a formal proclamation. Here's what I had to say to them about it. pic.twitter.com/HB1qtqFcRo
— Pieter Friedrich (@FriedrichPieter) December 16, 2021
Ashok Swain is an academic and professor of peace and conflict research in Sweden writes: If our Gods, Prophets, and Gurus are so weak that they need us to protect them, why then do we need to have them?
If our Gods, Prophets, and Gurus are so weak that they need us to protect them, why then do we need to have them?
— Ashok Swain (@ashoswai) December 19, 2021
He also wrote, “Instead of tabling an anti-conversion bill, the Karnataka Government should table an anti-pothole bill. The state of roads across Karnataka has hit rock bottom.”
Comment: The Anti ConversionBill serves no other goal but to give ownership to fanaticized groups to criminalize Christians and attack churches which they are already doing, and are on a Sunday mission of attacking churches and it is is is a pity that the ones who want to make India Vishwaguru (global spiritual teacher) of the world need a state law to control a peaceful two percent almost invisible community.